Legislature(1993 - 1994)
04/05/1994 03:35 PM Senate TRA
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SENATE TRANSPORTATION COMMITTEE
April 5, 1994
3:35 p.m.
MEMBERS PRESENT
Senator Bert Sharp, Chair
Senator Randy Phillips, Vice Chair
Senator Tim Kelly
Senator Jay Kerttula
Senator Georgianna Lincoln
MEMBERS ABSENT
All Members Present
COMMITTEE CALENDAR
CS FOR HOUSE BILL NO. 183(FIN) am
"An Act directing the identification and delineation of a
transportation and utility corridor between Fairbanks and the
Seward Peninsula; and providing for an effective date."
CS FOR HOUSE BILL NO. 330(TRA)
"An Act relating to the use of natural gas as a motor vehicle fuel
in state-owned vehicles and to the Department of Transportation and
Public Facilities' authority to participate in joint ventures
related to natural gas."
PREVIOUS SENATE COMMITTEE ACTION
HB 183 - No previous senate committee action.
HB 330 - No previous senate committee action.
WITNESS REGISTER
Representative Jeannette James
State Capitol, Juneau, AK 99801-1182¶465-3743
POSITION STATEMENT: prime sponsor of HB 183
Helvi K. Sandvik, Deputy Commissioner
Department of Transportation & Public Facilities
3132 Channel Drive, Juneau, AK 99801-7898¶465-6973
POSITION STATEMENT: in favor of HB 183
POSITION STATEMENT: in favor of HB 330
Jeff Logan, Aide
Representative Green
State Capitol, Juneau, AK 99801-1182¶465-4931
POSITION STATEMENT: prime sponsor of HB 330
Art Koeninger, Volunteer
Alaska Environmental Lobby
Box 22, Chitina, AK 99566¶463-3366
POSITION STATEMENT: in favor of HB 330
Jerry Gay
Department of Environmental Conservation
410 Willoughby Ave., Suite 105, Juneau, AK 99801-1795¶465-5000
POSITION STATEMENT: in favor of HB 330
ACTION NARRATIVE
TAPE 94-11, SIDE A
Number 001
CHAIRMAN SHARP calls the Senate Transportation Committee meeting to
order at 3:35 p.m.
Number 010
CHAIRMAN SHARP brings up HB 183 (TRANSPORTATION CORRIDOR:
FAIRBANKS-NOME) as the first order of business before the Senate
Transportation Committee today. The chairman calls the prime
sponsor as the first witness.
Number 019
REPRESENTATIVE JEANNETTE JAMES, prime sponsor of HB 183, states the
bill would authorize the Department of Transportation & Public
Facilities (DOT) to delineate a corridor from Fairbanks to the
Seward Peninsula for rail use. This delineation is subject to
legislative appropriation, though other funds, such as federal and
or private funds, could be used. The sunset clause for HB 183 is
the year 2055.
REPRESENTATIVE JAMES believes rail would be preferable to a road,
due to all the problems associated with roads.
Number 077
SENATOR LINCOLN asks Representative James why, under paragraph (2)
on page 1, "impacts to subsistence" is not included.
REPRESENTATIVE JAMES responds HB 183 does include "impacts on and
service to adjacent communities",
SENATOR LINCOLN does not agree that phrase would protect
subsistence uses. If folks reside outside a community, or have a
trapline or something outside a community, that activity would not
be protected.
Number 100
REPRESENTATIVE JAMES understands the concerns of Senator Lincoln,
but she does not know if the legislature can define subsistence at
this point in time. She has no problem with recognizing
subsistence as a very wise use of our resources in this state.
CHAIRMAN SHARP says the committee can work on amending HB 183.
Number 122
SENATOR LINCOLN says she does not like the term "...significant
environmental impact..." under subparagraph (E), and would like to
perhaps delete the word "significant".
REPRESENTATIVE JAMES states she would consider that a friendly
amendment.
Number 134
SENATOR LINCOLN says she is also concerned with subparagraph (A) on
page 2, wondering whether native lands would come under state
condemnation.
REPRESENTATIVE JAMES replies she does not know if eminent domain
would apply to native lands. She cannot answer that question at
this time. However, she does not see natives objecting to a
railroad over their lands, as it would benefit them also. Native
corporations could lease their lands for use as part of this rail
corridor, and they would then receive revenue from those leases.
Number 164
CHAIRMAN SHARP says the committee will request a clarification from
legal services on whether native land would be subject to
condemnation and eminent domain.
Number 175
SENATOR KERTTULA makes an observation that perhaps the resources
necessary to build and maintain the railroad corridor be provided
for in HB 183. Area adjacent to the rail corridor should be set
aside for use in the building and maintaining of that corridor, at
the same time the corridor is established. He suggests language be
inserted on page 1, lines 11 and 12, stating, "...shall encompass
gravel, rock, and other resources needed to construct and maintain
the railroad.", and thinks that language is necessary in the
interest of the public and of the state.
Number 232
SENATOR KELLY asks if this railroad could potentially connect up
with the Russian Railroad system.
REPRESENTATIVE JAMES replies it would be about 1,100 miles from the
Russian Railroad, though there is a very strong interest in
building a trans-continental railroad. She supports a trans-
continental railroad, but does not think this project is dependant
upon a transcontinental railroad. Right now, China is expanding
their railroad to meet the Russian railroad. So if the state does
connect with the Russian railroad, it will give the state access to
China, as well as Russia. The American Railway Association has
established a technical committee on the Bering Straits tunnel and
the trans-continental railway. They will be meeting in Fairbanks
on May 24 & 25, 1994.
Number 265
CHAIRMAN SHARP asks if there are any more questions for
Representative James. Hearing none, the chairman calls a
representative from DOT to testify.
Number 269
HELVI K. SANDVIK, Deputy Commissioner, Department of Transportation
& Public Facilities (DOT) states the department supports HB 183.
The department believes it would go a long ways towards dealing
with transportation planning issues that the state is facing. DOT
has prepared a fiscal note on HB 183. It would require a fairly
significant capital investment. She does agree with Senator
Kerttula that resources needed for construction and maintenance of
the rail corridor should be set aside.
Number 280
SENATOR LINCOLN asks how much DOT's fiscal note is for.
MS. SANDVIK replies the total is 7.3 million dollars over a two
year period.
SENATOR KELLY asks Representative James if a rail system to Nome
would connect to a Russian road system.
REPRESENTATIVE JAMES responds there is no rail or road system in
the Russian Far East with which an Alaskan railroad to Nome could
connect. She notes that the bill does not have a fiscal note,
because it is subject to legislative appropriation or the
availability of other funds.
Number 296
CHAIRMAN SHARP announces his staff will work with Representative
James to work on language to include the language suggested by
Senator Kerttula. The chairman also wants to address Senator
Lincoln's concerns. The chairman announces that HB 183 will be
held to work on those changes.
Number 310
CHAIRMAN SHARP brings up HB 330 (FUEL STATE AUTO FLEET WITH NATURAL
GAS) as the next order of business before the Senate Transportation
Committee. The chairman calls a representative from the sponsor's
office to testify.
Number 317
JEFF LOGAN, Aide to Representative Green, reads the sponsor's
statement on HB 330.
Number 333
SENATOR KERTTULA states he has no objection to HB 330, but the
term, "public and private cooperation" makes him think that the
public sector will get ripped off by the private sector.
Number 337
MR. LOGAN responds that the problem at this point, is that the
private sector fleet is not large enough for the private sector to
secure financing for this project. HB 330 would allow the state to
finance a refueling facility through CMAQ (Congestion Mitigation
Air Quality) funds. Those funds are made available from the
federal government, and the state currently has a little over 8
million dollars. It is envisioned that DOT could provide the land
near the airport, and some of the CMAQ monies, which have to be
spent, could be used for the facility. The private sector would
also put some money up.
Number 362
SENATOR KERTTULA adds there will also be a cost for converting
vehicles to using natural gas, which is approximately 3,500$ per
vehicle.
Number 378
MR. LOGAN replies that HB 330 has language included by DOT, that
would require the use of natural gas when practicable. In regards rds
to the cost of the conversion kit, Mr. Logan notes that the kit is
transferrable from one vehicle to another; so once the investment
in the conversion kit is made, the cost is recouped pretty quickly
with the lower cost of the fuel.
Number 389
SENATOR RANDY PHILLIPS says when he was in Edmonton, Alberta
several weeks ago, he noticed that the taxi cab he rode in used
propane as fuel. He asks if propane would be included in HB 330.
MR. LOGAN responds that propane is not included in HB 330. It was
considered, but the problem with propane is that it does not help
with the emissions standards in Anchorage. One of the primary
goals HB 330 is attempting to achieve, is to get away from the use
of oxy-fuels.
SENATOR RANDY PHILLIPS states that in Alberta, propane was 8 cents
per litre, while unleaded gas was 36 cents per litre. Senator
Phillips suggests doing some research to find out how the private
sector is involved in the propane market in Alberta.
SENATOR KELLY asks what the process is for the use of natural gas
in vehicles.
MR. LOGAN replies natural gas can be used in both its' natural
state, or in a compressed state.
Number 410
SENATOR KELLY asks if natural gas would be dangerous in the case of
an automobile accident.
MR. LOGAN responds it is not dangerous. Natural gas, when
released, simply evaporates into the atmosphere. Mr. Logan quotes
Ken Langle, former state fleet manager, who says natural gas is
much safer than gasoline.
SENATOR KELLY asks if a special tank is used for natural gas.
MR. LOGAN replies that special tanks are used.
SENATOR KELLY asks Mr. Logan who currently produces liquid natural
gas in Alaska.
MR. LOGAN responds Marathon and Phillips do.
SENATOR KELLY asks Mr. Logan what their market is.
MR. LOGAN replies their market is Japan. There are also a few
state cars that use natural gas. There is a private retailer in
the Spenard area that provides that gas.
SENATOR KELLY asks what the retailer in Spenard thinks of HB 330.
MR. LOGAN responds he has not asked the retailer that question.
CHAIRMAN SHARP asks if any of the utilities utilize natural gas.
Number 439
MR. LOGAN replies the Barrow electrical utility has been using
natural gas in their vehicles for some time. Some officers of the
Enstar natural gas utility in Anchorage who have natural gas lines
supplying their homes are able to tap into those lines to fuel
their cars.
Number 444
SENATOR LINCOLN asks Mr. Logan what the term "non-attainment" in HB
330 means.
MR. LOGAN responds the term refers to non-attainment of the Clean
Air Act of 1990.
CHAIRMAN SHARP adds it refers primarily to Anchorage and Fairbanks.
Any place where emissions tests are required probably stems from
that act.
Number 453
SENATOR LINCOLN asks if, then, that term would just apply to the
Anchorage and Fairbanks areas.
Number 454
MR. LOGAN states that is correct for that portion of the bill.
However, another portion of HB 330 says "where the fuel is
available". And presently, the only place the fuel is available is
the Anchorage bowl area. There are plans to make the fuel
available in Fairbanks soon. But this was the sponsor's way of
making sure DOT would not have to spend extra money for vehicles in
areas where the fuel was not available, and where the Clean Air Act
of 1990 is not applicable.
Number 459
SENATOR LINCOLN asks what some of the original terms in HB 330 were
to which the commissioner of DOT objected.
Number 463
MR. LOGAN responds that originally, the bill stipulated that DOT
was to have a certain percentage of their fleet converted to
natural gas use by a certain date. That is the language to which
DOT objected.
Number 470
SENATOR RANDY PHILLIPS requests that Mr. Logan contact Alberta to
see how use of propane fuel was implemented in Edmonton.
Number 476
CHAIRMAN SHARP asks if there are any more questions for the
sponsor. Hearing none, the chairman calls a representative from
DOT to testify.
Number 497
HELVI K. SANDVIK, Deputy Commissioner, Department of Transportation
& Public Facilities (DOT) says the department supports the general
concept of using natural gas and other alternative fuels. The
department is doing so at this time. DOT did object to the earlier
version of the bill as noted earlier. DOT does believe that it
already has the authority to proceed in this direction without HB
330, and are doing so under existing law. Nonetheless, DOT is
supportive of the concept of HB 330.
Number 490
CHAIRMAN SHARP says it was his understanding that DOT is moving in
the direction of using alternative fuels, though he does not know
of any plans for joint venture fueling stations.
Number 497
MS. SANDVIK responds that under ISTEA the ability to joint venture
exists. She has recently seen correspondence from the U.S.
Department of Transportation encouraging public/private
participation in joint ventures to the benefit of improving
transportation systems. So she does believe that authority exists,
should the state choose to go in that direction.
MS. SANDVIK states it makes sense to locate a fueling facility in
the vicinity of the Anchorage airport.
Number 508
CHAIRMAN SHARP asks if there are any more questions for Ms.
Sandvik. Hearing none, the chairman calls the next witness.
Number 510
ART KOENINGER, Volunteer, Alaska Environmental Lobby states the
lobby supports HB 330. Mr. Koeninger reads a written statement
submitted to the committee.
Number 535
CHAIRMAN SHARP asks if there are any questions for Mr. Koeninger.
Hearing none, the chairman calls the next witness.
JERRY GAY, Department of Environmental Conservation (DEC) states he
is standing in for Mr. Verrelli of DEC. Mr. Gay reads a letter
from the commissioner of DEC to the prime sponsor of HB 330,
Representative Green. DEC supports HB 330 and has no objections to
the current version of the bill.
CHAIRMAN SHARP asks if there are any questions for Mr. Gay.
Number 556
SENATOR RANDY PHILLIPS asks what the unit of measurement is for
natural gas.
MR. GAY responds the unit of measurement is cubic feet.
SENATOR RANDY PHILLIPS asks who the manufacturers of vehicles using
natural gas are.
(Apparently Ford is one of the manufacturers.)
Number 565
CHAIRMAN SHARP notes there duel fuel generators have been on the
market for quite a while.
SENATOR RANDY PHILLIPS makes a motion to discharge HB 330 from the
Senate Transportation committee with individual recommendations.
Number 568
CHAIRMAN SHARP, hearing no objection, orders HB 330 released from
committee with individual recommendations.
Number 571
CHAIRMAN SHARP adjourns the Senate Transportation Committee meeting
at 4:20 p.m.
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